
Its Quite Long. But Very Interesting one.
3:30
PMimtracynotstacy: hi Desney
yensed: Hey Tracy, how's it going.
imtracynotstacy: It's going well.
yensed: Cool. 3:32 PM
imtracynotstacy: thanks for taking this time for me
yensed: No problem... This is a fun medium.
imtracynotstacy: So. I'd like to start out by just asking where you are. What city?
yensed: I'm in Redmond right now, in my office here.... Redmond, WA.
imtracynotstacy: And could you describe your work for me....in 10 words or less? (keeping with the spirit of IM) 3:35 PM
yensed: 10 words? Oops, I just used them up...
imtracynotstacy: try again, please :)
yensed: I see myself as working hard to upgrade humans. Augment ourselves with technology, if you will.
imtracynotstacy: and what tools do you use to do that? or maybe I should ask, what technologies?
yensed: Well, we believe that there is a lot of potential to be harvested from interfacing directly with the human physiology... So we've done a lot of work with brain-computer interfaces, using brain-sensing devices to infer what's going on in our brains, which can be pretty useful in a variety of situations.
3:36 PM
We've also done quite a bit sensing muscles, and other parts of the body. Many of the technologies we use utilize very simple electromagnetic sensing, since the human body is a pretty prolific generator of these signals.
3:37 PM
imtracynotstacy: do you conduct your work from your office? Or do you also have a lab?
yensed: We have quite a few resources here... Much of it, we do in the office, some in labs around the company. We also collaborate a lot with academic institutes and do a lot of work remotely too.
imtracynotstacy: the stuff you are talking about sounds very cyborg-ish 3:40 PM upgrading humans and all
yensed: Yes, I would claim we are already "cyborgs" (in your terms). We've spent a good deal of our history crafting technology augmentations to ourselves... Language (both spoken and written), and more recently, computers, cell phones, etc.
imtracynotstacy: yes, lots of people have their cell phones attached to their heads, so to speak
yensed: I'm very influenced by the Distributed Cognition movement, which proposes that in order to understand the human and human cognition, we have to understand ourselves in the context of our environments.
3:43 PM
imtracynotstacy: how do you want to upgrade humans? and why?
yensed: Well, I'd like for the computer-human interface to become much more natural than it currently is. We can still (mostly) tell the boundary between computer and human, and I believe this makes the overall system less effective than it could be. I think when the two systems become seamlessly integrated we will start to hit the potential of computing.
imtracynotstacy: What do you mean "much more natural?"
yensed: For example, with the brain-computer interface work, one thing we'd like to do is to provide a method for a computer to better understand the current state of humans so that it can act appropriately.
imtracynotstacy: could you give me an example of an application for a computer that can understand the state of a human?
yensed: Right now, my machine has no idea that I'm in a conversation (even though it should). It doesn't know I'm thinking really hard (yes, I am) to answer your great questions. E-mail just came in in the other window and interrupted me for a sec. My machine should've known better. 3:45 PM
imtracynotstacy: and what would a machine do with that knowledge, if it knew?
yensed: Interruption mediation based on my mental state is just the start of things. We know that interruptions are highly costly, and we can avoid them, but fixing existing problems is only half the fun... Imagine if the computer could help me absorb/process more information because it knew more about me, or more about my current mental state. Wouldn't that be nice?
imtracynotstacy: sort of like a personal assistant that can read your mind?
yensed: Yep, you could say that.
3:48 PM
imtracynotstacy: okay, so how do you get to that stage?
yensed: Well, currently, we hook people up to brain-sensing devices such as Electroencephalographs (EEG) that sense voltages on the scalp. These are pretty good indicators of activity in the brain. The readings are really noisy though, since the brain is quite complex, and the signal has to come through your skull and scalp. So we have to use quite a bit of computational power to process the signals and make sense of it all.
imtracynotstacy: and what activity are you seeing? sensing?
yensed: We have shown that, even with fairly low-end equipment (which is important cause we'd like this to be useful to the masses), we can sense different mental activities (e.g. doing math in your head vs. thinking of objects vs. doing nothing). 3:50 PM We've also shown we can measure/infer how hard you're thinking... This is important if you want to know how hard a task is (e.g. using a new interface or doing a new task), so that we can design our systems appropriately.
imtracynotstacy: so my computer could possibly tell the difference between when I'm doing nothing and when I'm typing or thinking, right?
yensed: Yep. We can do that, even if there are few external cues (if there are external cues, we could sense those too, without brain gear).
imtracynotstacy: why did you get into this kind of work?
yensed: Have always been interested in the human brain/body, and have always been interested in computing (which is what I'm formally trained in). I think there's opportunity for very large impact in this space. Also, I like working on problems that people call impossible (or at least difficult), and hooking technology up to brain and body certainly fall into that category of stuff. I'm also a little of a sci-fi geek I guess, and what better way to spend my time than creating some of the fantasy.
3:52 PM
imtracynotstacy: If you could let your sci-fi imagination run wild, what could you hope/dream might become of this area of research? And then what is the reality?
yensed: It's all reality, or can be. I think that a much better understanding both of ourselves (physiologically as well as philosophically), but also the knowledge of how to leverage that understanding and increase our effectiveness at operating within the world.
3:55 PM
imtracynotstacy: could you give me a concrete example of a possibility of this technology?
yensed: I love a bunch of the work being done with prosthetics for example. Lose an arm? We can graft a robotic one on, rewire some of the nerves (or brain) and you're good to go, mostly anyways. Amazing stuff.
imtracynotstacy: What do you imagine this technology could offer?
3:58 PM
yensed: Now, I talk about the 3 stages of media (since I came out of lab at CMU called Stage 3). Stage 1: show proof of concept that it works at all. Stage 2: Emulate existing technologies (or capabilities) Stage 3: Do new stuff with the technology. We're in Stage 2 with prosthetics, but imagine when we start giving healthy people a third arm. Or forth or fifth. 4:00 PM How do we change our humaness (humanity)?
imtracynotstacy: wow. talk about augmentation!
yensed: It takes a little creativity to get into Stage 3, but oftentimes, that leads to massive changes (and improvements) to the way we live.
imtracynotstacy: yeah, but having a mobile phone that downloads stream video for example is nothing compared to a third arm...I mean, that feels like....I dunno...evolution
yensed: Maybe. But have you seen all the great stuff that mobile phones are enabling in the developing world? Medical care, business/commerce, education... No less impressive than my third arm.
4:02 PM
imtracynotstacy: okay.....good point so where do you get your inspiration?
yensed: Everywhere.
imtracynotstacy: like?
yensed: Everytime someone says "I wish I could...." that inspires me.
imtracynotstacy: when's the last time someone said that?
yensed: Just this morning, my wife said "I wish I could sense the weather like animals can" (it snowed here this weekend, which is fairly, no, very, unusual). Why not? We're working on a project called "computational senses" which proposes that we can let people sense information that they would normally have to read on a computer.
4:05 PM
imtracynotstacy: like weather?
yensed: Like weather... What about traffic? The mood of my boss... Maybe the state of my health, so that I felt a little different when I'd eaten something unhealthy or not exercised enough for the week. We assert that people can integrate quite complex streams of information into their decision-making and behavior very effectively and very quickly (in a process commonly known as brain plasticity).
imtracynotstacy: very cool
yensed: Often times, the information is out there, we just don't have seamless ways of getting to it, and continuously. Personal health feedback is one that interests me greatly (what with my interest in the human body and keeping it working). Continuous health monitoring and feedback could do wonders for the way we live.
4:07 PM
imtracynotstacy: so are you talking about some kind of device a person would wear that would monitor their health and give them feedback about what they should eat or exercise?
yensed: Could be... One project we're starting to work on in collaboration with some really awesome researchers at the University of Washington is to build health-sensing right onto contact lenses.
imtracynotstacy: could you say more about that?
4:10 PM
yensed: Contact lenses are pretty cool, cause they actually come into contact with tears, which carry some of the same information as blood, but they don't require pricking my skin. Prof Babak Parviz out at UW has developed technology to flexibly fabricate circuits on all sorts of surfaces (e.g. contact lenses). So you could put a display right on your eye, but you could also have continuous sensing without having to draw blood.
imtracynotstacy: and sense stuff like diabetes? cholesterol? stuff like that? AIDS?
4:13 PM
yensed: We're going after glucose sensing initially cause it's pretty high impact. But there are many markers that have been shown to be measurable in tears, and I'm guessing many others waiting to be discovered. We haven't thought about AIDs, but now you're getting into it... We (or someone) probably should.
imtracynotstacy: It's really fascinating!
yensed: Fun stuff...
imtracynotstacy: I'm wondering about HOW you do your work? Like, if you look around your office right now, do you have tools of your trade sitting around?
yensed: Yes Let's see... I have an EEG unit (and a bunch of sensors) sitting to my right. Couple of joysticks and whacky input devices.
4:15 PM
Lot'sa styrofoam heads up on my shelf (I'm really not obsessed, so much as very enthusiastic about what I do) Couple of models of brains, obviously lot'sa books, papers...
imtracynotstacy: what are the heads for?
yensed: Well, I had an intern a few years ago who decided that he would purchase a bunch of heads to decorate his office. Turns out they were very useful to use as a reference when talking about a head. When two people are chatting, it's hard to point on one or the other of their heads. So we use the model. We can also poke at it, like we wouldn't quite want to do on a human.
imtracynotstacy: same with the brains, I suppose?
4:17 PM
yensed: Yeah. Oh, and if you look at my floor, you'll see a whole bunch of colored balls, much like the kids ball-room at Ikea.
imtracynotstacy: what are those colored balls for?
yensed: Sometimes we through stuff at each other or shoot nerf guns... It's an environment we've crafted to be fun, cause our jobs are intrinsically a creative endeavor (in addition to the science).
4:20 PM
Much of research is about thinking differently. And we can't really do that if we're sitting in cubes, hunched over computer terminals all day. I consulted with Disney years ago, and they knew how to have fun, and make fun. And as a result they were some of the most creative people in the world (I claim). Again, same theme. We can affect our behavior by crafting the environment, and the technologies we surround ourselves with. And if we do it right, we affect it in positive ways.
imtracynotstacy: I could imagine that you could spend a lot of time thinking about what to surround yourself with in order to maintain the level of creativity. That could be someone's job, in a way....
yensed: Could be, but the act of building our environment is in and of itself a creative process and creativity breeds more creativity, so we enjoy doing it.
imtracynotstacy: And what's a typical day like for you?
4:22 PM
yensed: There are no typical days. Wake up, rush into work usually in an excited frenzy. Build new (and hopefully cool) stuff. We do a lot of experiments as well, much like you would see in a phsychology or neuroscience lab. A lot of brainstorming.
imtracynotstacy: so are you getting ready for lunch now?
yensed: I'm about to have to run off to a brainstorm in a few minutes. We're trying to figure out how we can improve medical care by improving the hospital experience.
imtracynotstacy: Ok. Well, thanks for your time. good luck with channeling that creativity bye for now
yensed: You betcha, latah .
4:25 PM
Courtesy: Discovery